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Post by Admin on Feb 8, 2016 18:54:51 GMT
I like the idea of tweeking the XP system, but I think using the 2e system and the 1e tables really skews the advancement. While Matt is a fantastic role player and uses his thief to great advantage to us all, something seems broken when the class with the lowest advancement track is earning 40-50% more experience per game. To my eye it just doesnt make sense. Whereas the highiest advance tracks, cleric and MU, often get middle or least. I realize that when I switch to thief this will greatly benefit me too, but that's not my point here. Just some food for thought. I totally agree with you here, and that is the reason that I've changed what is written on Table 34 on page 48 of the original 2e DMG. By-the-book, a thief would be getting around about 70-80% more experience per game, I'd estimate: 200 XP per successful use of a special ability and 3 XP per gold piece of treasure. So, I adjusted the numbers to 100 XP and 2 XP. Still doesn't work. I'm going to make a detailed analysis of this problem in this thread, here.
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Post by Malcadon on Feb 8, 2016 22:00:38 GMT
I like the idea of individual XP awards, if it encourages more creative role-playing and story/character development than just the same old hack-n-slash-n-loot.
5e-styled Personal Characteristics rule would work great with the Individual Experience Awards system form 2e. That is, the players write a set of traits and flaws with little or not baring on the normal rules (e.g. head-in-the-clouds, lustful, bound to [group] interests, etc.), and if the players keeps to the character's traits and flaws, even at the detriment to the character, then the player is rewarded with bonus EXP.
And yes, the Individual Experience Awards system form 2e is a little problematic, as it should be more flexible for each class entry. For example, a Fighter only gets 10XP/per HD/Level of defeated foe, but they should also get rewards for pulling-off physical stunts (like throwing a barrel at the enemy or swing form a chandelier, etc.), using tactics, and sticking his/her neck out in a fight for the sake of the group and so on.
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Post by Admin on Feb 9, 2016 2:08:15 GMT
And yes, the Individual Experience Awards system form 2e is a little problematic, as it should be more flexible for each class entry. For example, a Fighter only gets 10XP/per HD/Level of defeated foe, but they should also get rewards for pulling-off physical stunts (like throwing a barrel at the enemy or swing form a chandelier, etc.), using tactics, and sticking his/her neck out in a fight for the sake of the group and so on. Right now, I'm thinking of simply doubling the monster XP award for all fighters. This seems fair since the treasure XP is doubled for all thieves in the campaign (tripled according to BtB). XP is awarded on a 1 GP per 1 XP basis, so, at present, this accounts for 50%+ of the XP per session, much more than that which is awarded for monster XP. This still doesn't solve the advancement discrepancy though, though that has always been part of AD&D: thieves have always advanced the fastest, out of all classes.
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Post by Malcadon on Feb 9, 2016 3:56:50 GMT
...thieves have always advanced the fastest, out of all classes. Yeah, that is due to their lower EXP thresholds (EXP Needed per level). If they where higher or at level with a Fighter, then they would not advance so quickly.
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gunth
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Post by gunth on Feb 9, 2016 20:25:02 GMT
Thieves should advance faster, but when their experience track is lower AND they are earning in some cases 200% of the lowest xp recipient, it is moving in two directions as once. A much faster gain and a much lower threshold to get there. Here is part of the problem with 2e xp rewards. A thief can use their abilities as often as desired, thereby ringing in 100xp all day long. A low level Cleric or M-U has 1 maybe 3 spells per day, thereby severely limiting their ability to gain xp. Making matters worse for those classes, is that they need much more xp to gain levels. If you intend on using the 2e system AND individual awards, I'd cut down the thief benefits to 1/4 or even 1/8 of what they are. Their option to use their abilities at will will make up for the loss. I dont think awarding more experience bonuses is the right answer, it just seems like very unbalanced awards for the risks. In my games I use the 1e system of shared experience with some tweaks. I like like the idea of shared xp as it is representative of the synergistic nature of a party. For example, a fighter is aided by the MU in combat, the Cleric in healing and the Thief in scouting. Abstracting that interaction in shared xp makes sense. Alternately, you can use the same system you have right now, but instead of awarding xp individually, total everything and split it evenly. Party adventuring is a group effort and should really be recognized that way to my mind. As I wrote, at this pace I'll make 7th pretty soon, and then be able to take advantage of the thief perks gaining xp, but that just doesnt seem fair to my mind. The other thing I noticed is that the numbers are off. 11,200+6737+6737+7496+7497+7496= 47162, not 41918. So let's take the 47,162 and divide that by 6 we get 7860 each. For the fighters there's no real difference, but it is a significant boost to the spell casters. Again, to my mind an adventuring party is no one man on an island thing, we all need to contribute for our mutual success,and experience awards should reflect that. Just my 2 cents.
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gunth
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Post by gunth on Feb 9, 2016 22:46:02 GMT
I like the idea of individual XP awards, if it encourages more creative role-playing and story/character development than just the same old hack-n-slash-n-loot. I see it just the opposite. Instead of chasing individual xp rewards with individual awards, by having an equal pool players are freer to make role playing choices over those that will earn them precious points. If as a fighter I can really only earn regular xp through killing, guess what I will be doing most of? Whereas, if I can support our Cleric, MU or Thief in their job knowing I am still getting some xp from it, my choices automatically become wider. "If all one has is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
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Post by Malcadon on Feb 10, 2016 1:12:01 GMT
"If all one has is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." I like my hammer! It gives me the means to brake stuff, without hurting by knuckles.
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gunth
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Post by gunth on Feb 11, 2016 18:36:18 GMT
Will we try and settle this before our next game. As I wrote, it wont effect my character or the other fighters too greatly, but it could be significant to getting those spell casters up in levels! John?
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Post by Admin on Feb 11, 2016 23:11:32 GMT
Will we try and settle this before our next game. As I wrote, it wont effect my character or the other fighters too greatly, but it could be significant to getting those spell casters up in levels! John? Basically, we will put this to a group vote, just like any other rule is open to a group vote. Gunth, you're right: there IS a problem with this rule, and, many others have noted this. I tried my best to fix things, by altering the numbers, but the results have been less than perfect: imbalanced. One ray of hope is that things are going to balance themselves out over time, as the party increases in levels. This is especially true for spellcasters, and, perhaps, to a lesser extent, for fighters. Myself, I'm hesitant to completely drop this rule, as, over the course of the campaign, it will equate to a few extra levels for everyone, something that is badly needed once one gets to The Temple itself. If we had only played BtB 1e, all of you would be at the top end of 2nd level by now, barely fit to meet the challenges of The Temple. Anyway, again, as with any rule: the final decision will be via group vote. I think that allowing the players to have a say in exactly what rules are used, and, how they are used, increases the fun factor, for everyone, overall. Seeya on Friday! John
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gunth
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Post by gunth on Feb 11, 2016 23:18:14 GMT
Sounds great. Do the absent players also know we're meeting an hour later now?
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Post by Admin on Feb 12, 2016 6:37:56 GMT
Sounds great. Do the absent players also know we're meeting an hour later now? Not sure. I am going to be on Skype at 7 pm EST, just in case. Anyway, yes, the Official Time is now 9 pm EST...! Pres
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gunth
Basic Member
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Post by gunth on Feb 12, 2016 16:51:22 GMT
Figure me for about 30-45 min before game time. Should we use our first 30 min to discuss this as it seems appropriate to settle it among the group before we begin play.
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gunth
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Post by gunth on Feb 13, 2016 17:34:34 GMT
Now to encourage role playing, I think we should stick to individual awards for good ideas, leadership etc. These things also foster good roleplaying and I'm fine if a bunch of people contribute and earn these 50-100xp awards on their own .
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Post by fp on Oct 6, 2016 14:41:31 GMT
Fighters and Thieves end up getting the best Individual XP awards BTB in 2E. Priests get the least.
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Post by Admin on Oct 12, 2016 23:29:18 GMT
Fighters and Thieves end up getting the best Individual XP awards BTB in 2E. Priests get the least. True, especially the thief. 2 XP per GP, really? So the thief gets 1000 gp. That's worth 3000 XP, while everyone else gets 1000 XP. That's kinda fucked up. That said, here is one of the very few areas where 2e is a dysfunctional game. Even though I design Aerth with 1e, I would be strongly inclined to run it with 2e. The 2e core, overall, is excellent. Prespos Ps. Working with gunth, we came to the solution of applying all 2e individual XP awards, but, totalling them, and, dividing things equally. Equal progression, overall, is part of the spirit && intent of AD&D. fp: thanks for playing/DMing 2e. While I'm "the 1e guy", it's good to have 2e people around. Overall, 2e and 1e are the same game: what is written in 2e is ADVANCED DUNGEONS && DRAGONS, and, at the table, a better version, in the sense of engineering/game design. However, i do think that 1e, in it's totality, is superior when it comes to detailing a fantasy world.
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Post by fp on Oct 13, 2016 12:28:57 GMT
Fighters and Thieves end up getting the best Individual XP awards BTB in 2E. Priests get the least. True, especially the thief. 2 XP per GP, really? So the thief gets 1000 gp. That's worth 3000 XP, while everyone else gets 1000 XP. No. BTB, 1GP =/= 1XP. So the Thief would get 2000xp and everyone else would get 0xp from a 1000gp worth of loot. Some also only applied the XP bonus when its something the thief had to be thiefy to find. So, he is part of the crew that kills a dragon....no bonus. He sneaks in and steals a 13k necklace for him and his friends, and then they leave the dragon with his loot...he gets 26k. Basically, fighters get XP from fighting, which everyone already does. Thieves get XP from getting gold, which everyone already does. A wizard has to use his spells to get his bonus XP. And the priest has to use his spells/powers mostly to advance his religion to get his bonus XP. So the wizard has to solve problems, which is usually already done. And the priest has to advance his religion, which is very subjective and subject to DM fiat. Many people have house ruled it to be problem solving on par with the wizard's bonus. I have done so. What makes Individual XP awards broken (BTB) is that it requires an extensive amount of minute bookkeeping from the DM during the game. Or a set of really honest players who are just as well-versed in the rules as the DM is.
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Post by fp on Oct 13, 2016 12:49:16 GMT
What I do is assign tick marks throughout the session. Everyone receives tick marks for things like clever ideas, good RP, funny jokes, etc. Each class gets tick marks for using their class's abilities. Fighters/Paladins/Rangers get bonus for fighting. Rangers get bonus for tracking. Paladins get bonus for Lay on Hands. Etc. There's no real set in stone method to my madness, its just what feels right. Currently, at 8th level or so, the tick marks are worth 100xp. For DMing a weaker party, I would make them worth 10, 25 or 50xp. And for even higher levels, probably mark them up, as well.
I also give XP for wonky stuff. Sometimes I tell a bad joke and give everyone 11xp. Once, my guys helped me install an Air Conditioner and I gave them XP for it. Before I got chairs at my apartment, I would give everyone XP for bringing chairs over. On the last one, I told them there would be a set award per chair so they deliberately brought more chairs than we could use so they could get more XP. Clever.
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