Post by Malcadon on May 14, 2015 9:46:31 GMT
I was trying to reverse-engineer the saving throw system, form OD&D to Rules Cyclopedia, including 1st ed AD&D, and I learned quite a bit from it, and some errors.
The objective was to make a system were characters form Mutant Future, can take multiple classes (instead of just the default Fighter-like class), with each class focused on a single set of skills. That is, the Thief class only provides their thieving skills and abilities, and nothing else. The Magic-User class only provides spells and any other abilities related magic-use. With Clerics, its all about turning and their own type of spells, and any other abilities related to their religion. While only Fighters can gain more hit points, better to-hits scores, and any weapon/armor proficiencies. The only issue was... how to handle saving throws? One idea, was to take a core, uniformed array, and as the character gain levels with the different classes, the scores lowers (improves) with class-based adjustments. But to see what how it all adds-up, I needed to deconstruct the whole damn system!
(Yes, Mutant Future uses saving throws, but their names are changed to suit the sci-fi setting — that is, Wands became Radiation — with Spells or Spell-like Devices being dropped, as it uses a whole other system for mental combat. But I'm adding Spells in, to make it more Thundarr-ish.)
OK, here is what my research on saving throws came up with:
In the Original D&D Rules, it only lists saving throws for Clerics, Fighting-Men, and Magic-Users. It did not list saves for Normal/0-level Men. Dwarves and Halflings are noted as being able to save as Fighters at four levels higher than normal — basically, the next tier. As Elves can switch between being Fighters and Magic-Users form game-to-game, so to their saving throws switch. Thieves did not get their own list of saving throws — the Greyhawk Supplement simply stated "With regards to saving throws, threat Thieves as Magic-Users." Progression stops at 13th level for Clerics and Fighting-Men, and 16 for Magic-Users.
Holmes' Basic Rules introduced saves for "Normal Man, Kobold, Goblin, etc.": it is the same as "Fighting Man, Thief, Hobgoblin, etc.", but all are one point higher. As the game only goes up to level 3, a list of Dwarf and Halfling saves were provided. As noted in the above example, Thieves saves as Fighting Man.
Moldvay's Basic Rules unified the Elf as a single Fighter/Magic-User class, and with it, its own set of saving throws: basically, the lowest scores form Fighter and Magic-User list. Normal Men save as Fighters, but with two points higher on everything but Rods, Staves or Spells, and that is only a point higher. Just like in OD&D, Thieves have the same saves as Magic-Users. The rules note that anyone who is higher than 3rd level gets a +2 to all their saving throws — ideally, the numbers should be two points lower then normal, as in keeping with the normal rules.
Cook/Marsh's Expert Rules was meant to be compatible with Moldvay's Basic Rules, but there were same changes: Normal Man save as Fighters, but with two points higher on everything, including Rods, Staves or Spells; Dwarves and Halflings saves were listed higher than normal — seven levels higher that a Fighter, instead of four, or two whole tiers! That last one was an error that carried itself into the subsequent rule-sets. Even though Thieves and Magic-Users start off with the same saving throw values, Thieves progress at the same rate as Clerics: every four levels.
The transition to Mentzar's Companion Rules, form Expert, with regards to saving throws, is a total mess! It retroactively changes some numbers around the 15th levels, and the new array goes all over the place! Mentzar's Master Rules use the same array as Companion, and includes the saves for the demihuman classes form Expert (including the inflated array for Dwarves and Halflings).
If you want a nice uniformed array, form level 1 to 36, use the Rules Cyclopedia. They more or less even out the numbers. The inflated array for Dwarves and Halflings are still present.
The saving throws in the first Advanced D&D is its own thing all together. The list of save effects, the numbers and the rate of progression have all been change form how they established in the original rules. Like with OD&D, progression stops after so many levels: 17th for Fighters, 19th for Clerics and 21st for Thieves as Magic-Users.
In the end, I am still stumped, as I want to avoid making the system too complicated. The only easy answer is to have the Fighter class effect saving throws, with Magic-Users providing an adjustment for the magic-based saves.
I hope someone finds this info an all interesting? People take the rules for granted, and is is easy to overlook how saving throws can change form rule-set to rule-set, more so with the BEMCI and RC rules.
The objective was to make a system were characters form Mutant Future, can take multiple classes (instead of just the default Fighter-like class), with each class focused on a single set of skills. That is, the Thief class only provides their thieving skills and abilities, and nothing else. The Magic-User class only provides spells and any other abilities related magic-use. With Clerics, its all about turning and their own type of spells, and any other abilities related to their religion. While only Fighters can gain more hit points, better to-hits scores, and any weapon/armor proficiencies. The only issue was... how to handle saving throws? One idea, was to take a core, uniformed array, and as the character gain levels with the different classes, the scores lowers (improves) with class-based adjustments. But to see what how it all adds-up, I needed to deconstruct the whole damn system!
(Yes, Mutant Future uses saving throws, but their names are changed to suit the sci-fi setting — that is, Wands became Radiation — with Spells or Spell-like Devices being dropped, as it uses a whole other system for mental combat. But I'm adding Spells in, to make it more Thundarr-ish.)
OK, here is what my research on saving throws came up with:
In the Original D&D Rules, it only lists saving throws for Clerics, Fighting-Men, and Magic-Users. It did not list saves for Normal/0-level Men. Dwarves and Halflings are noted as being able to save as Fighters at four levels higher than normal — basically, the next tier. As Elves can switch between being Fighters and Magic-Users form game-to-game, so to their saving throws switch. Thieves did not get their own list of saving throws — the Greyhawk Supplement simply stated "With regards to saving throws, threat Thieves as Magic-Users." Progression stops at 13th level for Clerics and Fighting-Men, and 16 for Magic-Users.
Holmes' Basic Rules introduced saves for "Normal Man, Kobold, Goblin, etc.": it is the same as "Fighting Man, Thief, Hobgoblin, etc.", but all are one point higher. As the game only goes up to level 3, a list of Dwarf and Halfling saves were provided. As noted in the above example, Thieves saves as Fighting Man.
Moldvay's Basic Rules unified the Elf as a single Fighter/Magic-User class, and with it, its own set of saving throws: basically, the lowest scores form Fighter and Magic-User list. Normal Men save as Fighters, but with two points higher on everything but Rods, Staves or Spells, and that is only a point higher. Just like in OD&D, Thieves have the same saves as Magic-Users. The rules note that anyone who is higher than 3rd level gets a +2 to all their saving throws — ideally, the numbers should be two points lower then normal, as in keeping with the normal rules.
Cook/Marsh's Expert Rules was meant to be compatible with Moldvay's Basic Rules, but there were same changes: Normal Man save as Fighters, but with two points higher on everything, including Rods, Staves or Spells; Dwarves and Halflings saves were listed higher than normal — seven levels higher that a Fighter, instead of four, or two whole tiers! That last one was an error that carried itself into the subsequent rule-sets. Even though Thieves and Magic-Users start off with the same saving throw values, Thieves progress at the same rate as Clerics: every four levels.
The transition to Mentzar's Companion Rules, form Expert, with regards to saving throws, is a total mess! It retroactively changes some numbers around the 15th levels, and the new array goes all over the place! Mentzar's Master Rules use the same array as Companion, and includes the saves for the demihuman classes form Expert (including the inflated array for Dwarves and Halflings).
If you want a nice uniformed array, form level 1 to 36, use the Rules Cyclopedia. They more or less even out the numbers. The inflated array for Dwarves and Halflings are still present.
The saving throws in the first Advanced D&D is its own thing all together. The list of save effects, the numbers and the rate of progression have all been change form how they established in the original rules. Like with OD&D, progression stops after so many levels: 17th for Fighters, 19th for Clerics and 21st for Thieves as Magic-Users.
In the end, I am still stumped, as I want to avoid making the system too complicated. The only easy answer is to have the Fighter class effect saving throws, with Magic-Users providing an adjustment for the magic-based saves.
I hope someone finds this info an all interesting? People take the rules for granted, and is is easy to overlook how saving throws can change form rule-set to rule-set, more so with the BEMCI and RC rules.